InformAction Forums

On some sites (I think it's when they have continually updated content such as http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ ) doing a system shutdown doesn't work because Firefox (version s 8 & 9 - it was OK in version 3) won't shut down. Disabling NoScript allows the shutdown OK, so I think the problem must be here.

Anyone found a workaround? Or reported it as a bug?

ptoye wrote:Anyone ... reported it as a bug?

The quickest way to find out is to use the box in the upper right labeled "Search".
... as said in Forum Rules #1, posted at the top of each forum.

But in the holiday spirit, , I did your search for you.
http://forums.informaction.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7665

The particular issue may be different, but the diagnostic process is the same. Let us know what you find.
Cheers.

Well, I found that one, but inability to restart isn't the same as not shutting down (but may well have the same root cause of a hung process). Hence my separate post.

But reading more carefully through that one, it may well be the same problem, except that I obviously can't debug it with ProcExp as I'm in shutdown mode. I'll try cancelling the shutdown and seeing what's going on. As I recall what happened was that Firefox wouldn't exit.

ptoye wrote:Well, I found that one, but inability to restart isn't the same as not shutting down (but may well have the same root cause of a hung process). Hence my separate post.

From that post:

In the taskmanager is still the ff running, i've to kill the instance there, just after this i can start firefox again.

I don't think that user was a native speaker of English (darn good effort, though), but it still comes through that the Firefox.exe process was still running -- as in your case -- which was why a restart was impossible. Can't restart something if it won't stop. Have you checked Windows Task Manager?

In the linked case, the malware culprit actually showed in Task Manager as well, though most malware is a little more subtle. You may catch something odd right there. Feel free to post a list or screenshot of running processes from the "Processes" tab.

ptoye wrote:But reading more carefully through that one, it may well be the same problem, except that I obviously can't debug it with ProcExp as I'm in shutdown mode. I'll try cancelling the shutdown and seeing what's going on. As I recall what happened was that Firefox wouldn't exit.

As above, kill Firefox.exe in Task Manager. Or do a hard shutdown if you have to. (make sure all work is saved in anything else that's running.)

Hopefully, you'll then be able to get ProcExp, if needed, and dig deeper. Let us know what you find.

I already had ProcExp as it happens (a very useful program IMHO).

I re-enabled NoScript and did a soft shutdown. the usual message (Firefox is stopping shutdown or words to that effect) appeared. I clicked "cancel" and the desktop reappeared (as expected) but the FF window was blank and "(not responding)" was in the title bar. Procexp showed that the FF process was still there (but I already knew that). The "Firefox" button at the top left of the window wasn't there - just the usual program logo. Clicking that gave the usual MS set of options - clicking "Exit" gave a window saying that FF was not responding and the usual options about closing it down. I clicked "seek for solution" and after a short pause the window disappeared. I then restarted FF manually OK.

So it would seem that there's something in NoScript or its interaction with FF that stops it shutting down (or hanging the process, which has that effect). Where does one go from here?

I know it's bad practice to use the OS to shut down programs, but accidents happen (which is how I found this problem).

And I don't have Spigot. Or any other malware that I'm aware of (unless you count Windows...).

ptoye wrote:So it would seem that there's something in NoScript or its interaction with FF that stops it shutting down (or hanging the process, which has that effect). Where does one go from here?

Firefox with NoScript shuts down normally for me and the rest of us here. I suggest you do a couple of things:
1) Exit Firefox with File > Exit before shutting down.
2) Find out what's causing the problem with your Firefox setup. Please follow the advice in this link. http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/Firefox%20hangs
You may find this article helpful too. http://kb.mozillazine.org/Problematic_extensions

Alan Baxter wrote:...
1) Exit Firefox with File > Exit before shutting down.

If you're curious why shutting down the browser with File > Exit is better than just hitting the X in the upper right (on all open windows, if more than one), my good friend GµårÐïåñ, who regularly develops both programs and web sites, gave a detailed, but not too technical, explanation of this here.

It's never been a problem just using the X, as Alan Baxter said, but it was interesting to see the difference from the designer's point of view. It may make a difference for you, which would be interesting.

And LOL about Winware.

Thanks very much (again) for that link - it's a really good explanation. But I notice that it uses the term "lazy" to describe programmers who don't handle the "X" icon properly. As opposed (presumably) to "lazy" users who prefer a single click on the "X" icon to the 2 clicks on File|Exit, which has disappeared from Firefox in Version 9 anyway and been replaced by the Firefox box at the top left.

And I found the problem by shutting down by accident, so the distinction between the "X" box and File|Exit didn't apply. I'd assume that shutdown is closer to "X" than to File|Exit, and possibly even more drastic. But I'm not a Windows programmer - my few brushes with the API have been fairly disastrous.

But this brings the subject back too: why is it hanging in the first place? I'll look at Alan Baxter's links (I seem, perversely, to work from the bottom up).

Alan Baxter wrote: Firefox with NoScript shuts down normally for me and the rest of us here. I suggest you do a couple of things:
1) Exit Firefox with File > Exit before shutting down.
2) Find out what's causing the problem with your Firefox setup. Please follow the advice in this link. http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/Firefox%20hangs
You may find this article helpful too. http://kb.mozillazine.org/Problematic_extensions

1) Well, of course that's what I normally do - the "X" icon works fine as well.

2) I'm updating my Java plugins which seem to be out of date (I thought FF did this automatically). And will see what happens.

<later> Now running Java 6.0.30. And no change.

ptoye wrote:Thanks very much (again) for that link - it's a really good explanation. But I notice that it uses the term "lazy" to describe programmers who don't handle the "X" icon properly. As opposed (presumably) to "lazy" users who prefer a single click on the "X" icon to the 2 clicks on File|Exit,....

It was, of course, interspersed with personal opinion, but his point was that Best Practice would be to hook the X to the same block of (clean exit) code that is called by File > Exit. Which would enable all of us lazy users (self included ) to use the X without fear of problems. (Never heard of any until this thread, TBPH.)

ptoye wrote:.... which has disappeared from Firefox in Version 9 anyway

Lazy developers?

You'd think they'd update that Help section accordingly, wouldn't you?

and been replaced by the Firefox box at the top left.

I'll have to look at that F-box sometime. The X always works, but I prefer the longer-vetted 3.6.x branch to the new-every-two-months thing. Less troublesome. IMHO. YMMV.

And I found the problem by shutting down by accident, so the distinction between the "X" box and File|Exit didn't apply. I'd assume that shutdown is closer to "X" than to File|Exit, and possibly even more drastic. But I'm not a Windows programmer - my few brushes with the API have been fairly disastrous.

I'm not a Windows programmer either, thank goodness , but if we're talking about either a hard machine shutdown or a TaskMgr process shutdown, IIUC the main issues are killing without being able to save changes (config and otherwise), doing what needs to be done with cached stuff (in general memory and the specific blocks for the program or process), save data or entries since last save (e. g., text doc; adding to your whitelist and killing before clicking "OK"), etc.

This is supposed to be bad if the stuff involved is system stuff, but Windows has gotten a lot more resilient, probably because of extending NTFS, a "journaling" file system, from the business-only line into the consumer line, mostly by merging the two. (Win 98 = FAT. Win 2000 = NT 5 = NTFS. Win XP = NT 5.1 -- it says so in my useragent string, down below, and in yours, NT 6.1 -- = NTFS also.) Being a tweaker, I've crashed a few times, and sometimes had to do hard shutdowns, but *so far*, never caused any damage. Maybe boot once to boot-selection screen, then try again to normal boot. BSOD now BSOTA? (Blue Screen Of Try Again?) Not recommending it, of course!!!

But this brings the subject back too: why is it hanging in the first place? I'll look at Alan Baxter's links (I seem, perversely, to work from the bottom up).

Note that one of the tips @ Alan's lnk says,

"A problematic extension can cause the problem..."

which may not be NoScript. Strange as it sounds, another extension (written by a much lazier developer than Signore Maone ) may cause a conflict with NS -- we've seen it many times. Hence, the usual advice is to try Standard Diagnostic.

If you want to shortcut that, create a clean profile from scratch, install *only* the latest NS, and then see if the issue persists. If not, then it's likely that the culprit was another extension. Add them back one by one until you can reproduce the issue. If they all work fine, then it was probably a corruption in the profile itself. There are ways to deal with that, but if the new profile works with all extensions, why bother? Set your preferences manually rather than copying possibly corrupted files, and if all is still good, import your bookmarks. (Hoping the bookmarks file wasn't corrupted!)

If a clean profile and only NS still causes the issue, consider seriously the possibility of malware. As Alan's link also says,

Interactions between certain Internet security software (firewall, anti-virus software) is reported to cause the issue on some systems.

Who are your AV and firewall providers? If the machine scans completely clean with your current AV, try MalwareBytes Anti-Malware and others.

And no shame if it does. I've detected several infections in friends' machines just from e-mail they sent me, and saw one in that of a friend with a Master's in CSci. It can happen to *anyone*.

(Well, *almost* anyone. IMHO, code that isn't there can't hurt you, so I just threw away 95% of Windows. %windir% runs about 195 MB. *Also* NOT recommended - undocumented.)

ptoye wrote:... File|Exit, which has disappeared from Firefox in Version 9 anyway ...

Huh?

Didn't ring a bell the first time it was read, so dragged out Firefox 9.01, and in the upper left, there is a File menu, with Exit at the bottom, and when you click "Exit", it, uh, .. exits.

Screenshot of yours? Need one of mine, or take my word for it?

N?M, found the problem. You must have unchecked "Menu Bar" after r-clicking on any toolbar. That produces the Firefox box, as you said.
To restore, click that Firefox bar, and on the menu to the right, point to Options > check "Menu bar".

More screen space is a good thing, but it can be carried too far....