InformAction Forums

I have been an ardent supporter, yet only today a financial one as well, but I digress. Just an opinion from the trenches. I install NS for many people, almost daily, in the hope of helping regular home users to protect themselves from malware. I know you cannot protect people from themselves, but educating them as to safe-surfing habits is not just difficult, but near impossible. Sometimes, when I have the time to speak with them, I point them to a youtube video describing NS, what it does and how to use it. What we need is a video like that on your main update page so we don't need to search for one, "click to play," of course. Most users, myself included, will not read the entire page anyway. WAY TMI. I am not a web-guy, I just scan down it every now and then. That page needs to be simpler, linking to the juicy bits for those interested. At least make the top of it simpler. The only thing I usually read is the yellow box, until recently that is.

I've learned a lot about NS and Giorgia -oops! (sorry I keep doing that, I live in Georgia in the last few days, and decided now was the time to show support. This is one of those rare tools that power users and simple users alike can run, but those simple users need just a wee bit of a tutorial. They don't read, they wouldn't know XSS, from CSS, hell, they don't even know what scripting is in the first place. Half of them can't get online without a blue "e" to click on, they don't even know what a browser is. And when you're talking to the parents of a child's computer they brought in, forget it. They're lucky if they figure out how to turn it on in the first place. I do explain to them how to use it, but I know they only remember 10% of what I say, so they need something to refer back to, something they can point their child back to. I wouldn't even mind if they called me for help in using NS, but they don't. They just give up, use ie, get infected again, and bring back their PC. PO'd that I didn't clean it right the last time. "Wasn't Norton supposed to take care of that?"

Oh, and one more thing. I was fine with the filterset idea, though, I also agree that the stealth install was bad. Can you post that on your site for those novice users scared to open the ABP interface and add it manually? I don't think it will really be needed, but It also may help for the appearance of full disclosure. "Here is is" so to speak. I know you already have fully disclosed, but many shills need to be reminded, since they don't look it up for themselves. Something in the order of: "If you'd like to install the NS filterset for ABP, click here." Not that you need another project, but if you managed a filterset similar to easylist, I may try ABP again. Their ideology is unsustainable in this ad-supported WWW today. It would be like if the Pirate bay refused to post anything but warez and bootlegs. But maybe they've changed, I dunno. For it is I who is ignorant there. I haven't read about this from their end.

Hi Nar,

thanks for your contributions.
Tom T created a NoScript Quick Start for Beginners guide, but I didn't find the time yet to integrate it with the startup page, where it would belong.
Please take a look at it and feel free to add any suggestion.
Also, since I'm not an English native speaker I'm unlikely to create a video by myself, have you seen any of the ones already posted on public sites like Youtube which would fit the bill, i.e. easy to understand, reasonably complete and embeddable with no copyright problems?

I usually just search youtube for noscript and pick the first one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKW5SMvMKtY

I'll take a look at that Quick Start Guide in a bit, thanks

Good suggestions, nar. Just to let you know, there's already a link to that video on the NoScript home page, but it's easy to overlook. A Firefox page search for "video" hits it.

`nar, welcome!
Your contribution is a breath of fresh air.
I help novice Fx/NS users in a few library groups and would value your dropping by with your experiences in this forum any time.

The most useful beginner's tip I know?
Put putty in the mouse clicker.

Actually, the one that works fairly well is to put the NS icon up there on the navigation toolbar and to vanish it from the status one down the bottom.
For some reason, novices seem to centre their attention on the navigation icons and notice the NS status a lot more quickly when it's there. They also take to the all-left-click operation up there better than the combination operations down on the status bar.

These are mostly pensioners who have been forced to operate right outside their comfort zone by banks and government agencies that demand web interaction rather than pay a few extra staff to help face-to-face, and I must say I've got plenty of time to laugh with them about all their stumbles on the web.

Once again, welcome mate!

I hadn't thought about moving the icon, that makes sense. Single click works for just top level domain right? That's great for novices! Why isn't that standard? I even like the ietab icon better there as well. I used to show users the global allow so they wouldn't get pissed of when they couldn't buy anything online see videos, or manage their finances, but found that they never turned it off and got reinfected. Now I show them ietab instead.

The video isn't on the update page though. That is the only page I usually see, or the end user will see. I see it on the main page, though it is very easy to miss. It needs to be in big bold words at least, preferably with a jpg image of the video to get attention as to the fact that it is more than just words. I learned a long time ago, less is more. I see a lot of words and I think, 'I'm not THAT intersted.'

I am looking now for a better video, we need one that explains WHY one needs to "break" their websites in the first place.

This one is informative, but just text to music:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUhQwt2 ... re=related

a little off topic, but this blocks adblock. Interesting... so users can't see your site until they disable adblock or whitelist your site.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxEXQ41u ... re=related

Too far off-topic. Let's not go there.

yea, I wouldn't want to be the cause of another international incident

`nar wrote:I hadn't thought about moving the icon, that makes sense. Single click works for just top level domain right?

Yes, it's the default config on the 'general' tab and the only one in bold. "Left clicking on NoScript toolbar button toggles permissions for current top-level site"

That's great for novices! Why isn't that standard?

A little too much futzing with the user's real-estate; toolbar buttons are not welcome to the general user, while statusbar ones are the usual polite flags for processes, I fancy.
I would eventually like to see NS up there right next to the "stop loading" standard button in all Fx default installs. It's analogous to the stop button and users may appreciate being reminded that loading doesn't stop once the pretty pictures are on display.
Note that a user is able to do that top-domain toggle with the CTRL SHFT BACKSLASH combo regardless of the location of the button.
A couple of my pensioner group find it a lot easier to keyboard around than to grip and control a pointing device.

I even like the ietab icon better there as well. I used to show users the global allow so they wouldn't get pissed of when they couldn't buy anything online see videos, or manage their finances, but found that they never turned it off and got reinfected. Now I show them ietab instead.

That's a good tip. I'll load ietab at our next library session for a couple of the more impatient users who still want to get used to NS when it's not a banking or a pension matter.

My job is a little easier because most of these library users are motivated to secure use, coming to the web because they are forced to and not for the web2 stuff as entertainment or socialising. Although I do see some begin to get cool about surfing, when they think they know it all
I don't use the Force HTTPS because exceptions and bugs can stop vital functions. The best training there is to bookmark their secure logins and have a session on how to use the Fx config and extensions to suss out their own particular secure needs.
I prefer to show the users the browser.identity.ssl_domain_display;2
config so they get a confirmation of the domain in the certificate/url match, combined with the ShowIP extension for confirming their decision by the numbers.

This makes most of the usual hurdles (multimedia, logins, menus,buttons) show up pretty quickly, and so the users get a concentrated practise in using the top domain toggle and place-holders, and - if we're lucky - a ClearClick© false positive.
After a couple of sessions, the users split quite distinctly into 2 groups. The first is pleased to be navigating securely if a bit slowly, as they check out each plugin and domain when a function's needed.
The second is impatient and has usually asked to turn NS off.
That's when I put the "allow all this page" items back into the menu.
Some people don't want to bother and I don't think they can be helped while the web is still as it is.

The video isn't on the update page though. That is the only page I usually see, or the end user will see. I see it on the main page, though it is very easy to miss. It needs to be in big bold words at least, preferably with a jpg image of the video to get attention as to the fact that it is more than just words. I learned a long time ago, less is more. I see a lot of words and I think, 'I'm not THAT intersted.'

Maybe a link to it from the forum here would go better while it's getting thought about? - up in the sticky quickstart beginners guide in the support forum?
http://forums.informaction.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=268

I am looking now for a better video, we need one that explains WHY one needs to "break" their websites in the first place.

I've been tossing around an idea that there could be a dummy site written where some of the basic active content traps can be demonstrated and where new users can be sent to get a clue.
Proof-of-exploit sites seem to be quickly set up by coders when new exploits are demonstrated, so it may be within the remit of coders to put them up for NS - - - -when time actually allows !!
No amount of saying the devil will bite you means a thing to those who have no overview of how scripts can run.

Is there something defective in the tutorial video that's already linked at NS home page, about a third of the way down,
"Watch the "Using NoScript" video kindly contributed by John Wilkerson."? (the first one 'nar mentioned, I think.) Or did I miss something? (It's late; please forgive me if I did.)

Giorgio Maone wrote:Also, since I'm not an English native speaker I'm unlikely to create a video by myself

@ Giorgio: I don't know where you would find the time, but If you would like to create one yourself, I would be very pleased to narrate according to your written script, adjusting it as needed to native-English levels. I have done professional speaking and voiceovers for film, commercials, etc., so have a good voice for it too. (But can't sing worth a hoot.) I'd have to get quality recording stuff somewhere.

Perhaps in return, you'll critique my attempt to make an English translation of "Volare (Nel blu dipinto di blu)" that was more true to the original than the bastardized versions made famous by Dean Martin and Bobby Rydell (nee' Ridarelli), which simply wrote brand-new, unrelated lyrics to Domenico Modugno's beautiful melody? Trivia: Modugno's original performance in Italian was the only song ever by a native Italian artist to reach number one on the Billboard Hot 100 in the US. It was also the first Grammy winner for Record of the Year (1958), the only foreign-language recording ever to take this top honor.

Some liberties were taken to make the song sing and scan to the original melody, plus I don't speak Italian

Edit: YouTube video of Modugno singing live, with live orchestra, on Eurovision, here.

Read the thread, Tom T.
The discussion is about how to make the NS homepage video more prominently linked, and `nar is also mining youtube for others that may be useful.
Just a bit of brainstorming. No territory is being threatened.

I wish I had the time to train my customers Nan, I usually cannot even speak to them before they take their PC home other than the basics of what I did to repair their computer. So, I am looking to dumb-down the interface to neophyte level. Explaining IP's, domains, XSS and so forth is beyond their will to listen, or my time to train them(or learn well enough to train . I just tell them to only allow the sites they trust and be wary of sites found during internet searches. I allow sites opened through bookmarks, and sometimes disable the yellow bar notification as it really doesn't tell me anything that the "S" with the red circle doesn't. Some people will forget to check that, so I gauge the particular user.

Tom - Since I install NS, the user won't see the homepage, just the update page. I am also concerned that they won't bother to look for themselves, or not be PC familiar enough to know how to look. They just want it to "work."

I found a couple of youtube videos with more info, but no speech. Even though they have music, it is too much like research for most people. I am surprised that I couldn't find anything better. On the one hand I'd like someone really knowledgeable with NS to make a video, but on the other hand, they may just talk over most users' heads. It needs to explain why it is needed, when you need to allow sites, and how to allow them. Anyone with the interest in more details will likely know how to click the help/about section and go to the homepage themselves. Keep it simple, more details should be in a second or third video.

I have never done a video, but after what I've seen, I am thinking about it.