IRC Channel

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dhouwn
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IRC Channel

Post by dhouwn » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:58 am

Since I see many "little" questions and some questions coming over and over again, how about offering a web chat in the form of an Java applet (hosted here or a link to Mibbit or therelike) that points to a NoScript-specific IRC channel on the Mozilla IRC server ("pro" users will of course join with a proper IRC client ;))?
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Tom T.
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by Tom T. » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:50 am

Who's going to answer them? This "pro" user wouldn't touch IRC with a ten-meter pole.

FWIW, the only live chat I do, with trusted friends of course, is over a Hamachi VPN with AES-256 encryption, on a network whose access I control. I have to approve requests to join, even after they're given the network password. Better safe than sorry....

Of course, nothing stops you from running such a channel yourself, and volunteering to help users, so long as it's made clear that it's an unofficial channel, not sanctioned or endorsed by NoScript or its developer.

We're all unpaid volunteers anyway, so if you want to volunteer your time on IRC... :)
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dhouwn
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by dhouwn » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:42 pm

Tom T. wrote:We're all unpaid volunteers anyway, so if you want to volunteer your time on IRC... :)
I just thought that most of the users that are regulary active here on this forum would also be willing to idle in the channel so that there is always someone to answer a quick question (users from all timezones FTW). I know that I would.
And just like on this board here, some users would get some moderation rights. Giorgio would have to ask for a channel bot (firebot [who's a neat companion BTW]) though.

Tom T. wrote:This "pro" user wouldn't touch IRC with a ten-meter pole.
Why's that? I meant "pro" in the sense of computer-savy and "into-it" enough to operate an IRC client software.

Tom T. wrote:FWIW, the only live chat I do, with trusted friends of course, is over a Hamachi VPN with AES-256 encryption, on a network whose access I control. I have to approve requests to join, even after they're given the network password. Better safe than sorry....
Well, there's the possibility of creating an invite-only, registered-users-only or password-protected channel, but my idea was more the one of a live-chat equivalent of this board (open to everyone, even non-registered users) rather than a coterie.


Giorgio, would you please give your opinion on this?
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Tom T.
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by Tom T. » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:52 am

I know that you wanted Giorgio's opinion, and I look forward to it myself. Just wanted to answer the questions directed at me, and otherwise respond.
dhouwn wrote:
Tom T. wrote:We're all unpaid volunteers anyway, so if you want to volunteer your time on IRC... :)
I just thought that most of the users that are regulary active here on this forum would also be willing to idle in the channel so that there is always someone to answer a quick question (users from all timezones FTW). I know that I would.

This may come as a surprise, but not everyone is connected to the Internet 24/7, or even all day. Some of us have to work for a living, perhaps at jobs not involving an Internet connection, or not permitting the time to monitor chat continuously. Or not be willing to be interrupted when doing their jobs on the computer. Or may want to go swimming, etc. :D
Some mods and frequent users may be willing to "idle", as you say. It's only occasionally that a non-mod regular user responds to a posted question, and then usually to the basic ones, most of which are covered in FAQ, NoScript Quick Start Guide, General Troubleshooting Instructions, etc. Of course, anyone who can answer such questions is certainly welcome to.

The support team consists of four Mods based in the US, so that's a *max* of three time zones apart, and one sometimes-mod in the opposite quadrant of the hemispheres. It would take a lot of knowledgeable non-mod users to cover that channel 24/7. If that happens, great. I'm not opposing the idea per se, and I'm sorry if you thought I was. I was questioning whether it was practical. It could be a big help if I'm wrong. :)
Tom T. wrote:This "pro" user wouldn't touch IRC with a ten-meter pole.

Why's that? I meant "pro" in the sense of computer-savy and "into-it" enough to operate an IRC client software.

I understood. I meant "pro" enough to understand the dangers. :cry: You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_R ... at#Attacks
Many other weaknesses and attacks out there. It's the same reason I don't participate in AIM (AOL Instant Messenger), Yahoo or MSN chat. Too infested with worms, viruses, trojans. Of course, if Giorgio can guarantee rock-solid security ....

It would have to be policed 24/7 against spam, profanity, flames, etc. ... This board has pretty good coverage, and if not covered at any given moment, any user can report a post, which flags it for the attention of all team members, so the next one to log on takes care of it, usually within a few hours. That may not be fast enough for "live", real-time evil going back and forth.

Tom T. wrote:FWIW, the only live chat I do, with trusted friends of course, is over a Hamachi VPN with AES-256 encryption, on a network whose access I control. I have to approve requests to join, even after they're given the network password. Better safe than sorry....

Well, there's the possibility of creating an invite-only, registered-users-only or password-protected channel, but my idea was more the one of a live-chat equivalent of this board (open to everyone, even non-registered users) rather than a coterie.

Understood the first time. Just saying what precautions *one particular user* takes before engaging in live chat.
The difference is that while this board, like any that permits user-uploaded content, may be subject to the posting of malicious links, images, etc., chat is going to open another port on the machine (IIRC, 194 or 531, and the 6660-6697 range, including SSL channels), which no forum does. That's inviting trouble, to this security-conscious, somewhat-paranoid user.

Looking forward to Giorgio's response. Your intentions are certainly positive, and if somehow feasible, could be useful.

p. s. A forum has separate threads for each issue. How does one avoid the confusion of, say, 20 or 50 topics going on at one? Separate channels? (This is why Giorgio split from Mozilla forum and created this one, at his own expense. He was allotted *one* thread among all MZ threads, and it was getting impossible to see and follow everything.) I've had trouble chatting with *one* other person, when while one is typing a reply to one comment, the other is typing something else. Soon, you get discombobulated. :lol:
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therube
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by therube » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:33 pm

I've visited only a few chats, #seamonkey, #mplayer (or something like that), & #cccp (or something like that, & not Russian), & to me I see no reason not to go. Don't really know how chat works, but it is effective for what it does. If a "spammer" (I don't really know what a spammer does in chat) stops by, he's simply ignored & goes away (or every once in a while, someone will knock him off, not that I know how that works). Everyone is civil.


He was allotted

Don't know that it had anything to do with "allotted". Could have set up the same topics as we have here, though it would be far harder to supervise, moderate, & no way for a person to particularly know that there were multiple ongoing threads much less which one to post to. And then it would be harder too to review those threads as they would be intermixed between all the other mozillazine threads.
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Tom T.
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by Tom T. » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:29 pm

therube wrote:<snip> If a "spammer" (I don't really know what a spammer does in chat)

Same thing they do on forums: Post/send spam links. Except that in real time, one could post dozens or hundreds. Or worse, post links to those "specially crafted web sites" that MS updates often mention in a patch: "To exploit the vuln, an attacker would have to lure the user to a specially-crafted web site...."
dhouwn is suggesting that non-Mod users pitch in and help, and that's great. But if a n00b comes with a question, how does s/he know who is a trustworthy (non-Mod) user, and who is sending them to some malicious site under the guise of "help"?

Also, when I was a noob user, (with AOL, of course ;) ) I tried their chat for a while. It was fine so long as it was restricted to members, against whom they have recourse (kick you out). When the Govt. ruled that AOL must open its chat to *everyone*, not just registered and paying AOL-ers, as a condition of the merger with Time-Warner, the boards quickly deteriorated into a bunch of juveniles (age or mind - same thing) filling it up with obscenity and profanity.

It sounds like your chats are perhaps members-only, or have full-time moderation, I don't know. But the point of the OP was that *any* guest could drop in, which makes it more tempting tor the slimes.

Tom T. wrote:He was allotted

therube wrote:Don't know that it had anything to do with "allotted". Could have set up the same topics as we have here, though it would be far harder to supervise, moderate, & no way for a person to particularly know that there were multiple ongoing threads much less which one to post to. And then it would be harder too to review those threads as they would be intermixed between all the other mozillazine threads.

MZ had a forum, "Add-ons". NoScript had *one topic* in that add-on. IIRC, there was no provision for additional NS topics. Don't take my word for it -- click the link to "Old discussions @ MZ" and review some. User A posts, the answer is several pages later, their reply, several more pages later. Meantime, B posts and gets an immediate reply. C posts, and .... Check it out. Constantly going back and forth a number of pages... Giorgio would archive the thread and replace it with a new one whenever a new version of NS came out. As NS grows in features and complexity, and the number of users grows, it seems that new versions need to be released more frequently. Which means that the user who posted under 1.9.9.92 isn't going to find their answer in the 1.9.97 topic, etc. Again, check it out -- it's why Giorgio created his own forum.

And LOL @ "& #cccp (or something like that, & not Russian)," :lol: :lol: :lol:
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dhouwn
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by dhouwn » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:03 pm

Tom T. wrote:p. s. A forum has separate threads for each issue. How does one avoid the confusion of, say, 20 or 50 topics going on at one? Separate channels? (This is why Giorgio split from Mozilla forum and created this one, at his own expense. He was allotted *one* thread among all MZ threads, and it was getting impossible to see and follow everything.) I've had trouble chatting with *one* other person, when while one is typing a reply to one comment, the other is typing something else. Soon, you get discombobulated. :lol:
The channel isn't going to overflow with activity (even the channel #firefox – the one with the most users – isn't) so I doubt it will happen very often.

chat is going to open another port on the machine (IIRC, 194 or 531, and the 6660-6697 range, including SSL channels), which no forum does.
That's incorrect, with every new TCP connection a random port is going to be opened on your machine. The port number you list are the ones the server has to have open.

But if a n00b comes with a question, how does s/he know who is a trustworthy (non-Mod) user, and who is sending them to some malicious site under the guise of "help"?
Hmm… that might be indeed a problem, since we would have no control of the IRC server software there would be no way to filter links. In large channels like #firefox (I'm just speaking in the context of the Mozilla IRC server of course) this is less of an issue since there are likely at least 2-3 mods active at all times, so they could just kick and IP-ban the baddie and warn the potential victim.
A possibility would be the creation of a default-mute channel where moderators have to explicitly give an user "the right to speak" temporarily, unfortunatly this would of course destroy the feeling of openness and probably scare away new users.
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by Giorgio Maone » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:37 pm

I'm OK with this, provided that someone (dhouwn? therube? both) get the mod/admin cap, layout rules and instruct the others.
Augh
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by Euph0ria » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:09 am

dhouwn wrote:Since I see many "little" questions and some questions coming over and over again, how about offering a web chat in the form of an Java applet (hosted here or a link to Mibbit or therelike) that points to a NoScript-specific IRC channel on the Mozilla IRC server ("pro" users will of course join with a proper IRC client ;))?


Sounds like a great idea. Now all you have to do is figure out a stable and fairly secure web based IRC client because hunting down and installing and irc client just to ask these "little" questions isn't practical.

But I agree, it would be very nice to pop in and chat and ask for advice and be able to offer any of my own if I can.
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Alan Baxter
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Re: IRC Channel

Post by Alan Baxter » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:27 pm

Euph0ria wrote:Now all you have to do is figure out a stable and fairly secure web based IRC client because hunting down and installing and irc client just to ask these "little" questions isn't practical.

Interesting suggestion, Euph0ria. Could you do the research and make some recommendations? Does http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Live+Chat do it this way?
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