Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

General discussion about the NoScript extension for Firefox

Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Guest » Sun May 03, 2009 11:20 pm

Hi Giorgio,

I've been following this saga for the past couple of days. At first I was somewhat disappointed, but having read your comment about Easylist completely blocking everything at noscript.net, I can understand your reasoning. As you said - it's the hacker mentality to fight back and exploit the system causing you trouble.

In the end, I think it would have been more Gentlemanly of you to get in contact with the Easylist maintainers and explain that your content was being blocked, but despite your chosen path of fighting back I am still in support of Noscript.

Keep up the good work.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Another Guest » Sun May 03, 2009 11:26 pm

Tester wrote:He commented that already:
viewtopic.php?p=3133#p3133

If I got it right he pointed out that displaying the spy-bugs would not look beautiful on his site.


Wow, that's the most ridiculous answer and justification one could possibly come up with.

Very disappointing - that's all I can say.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby BigMKnows » Mon May 04, 2009 12:00 am

Regarding my last comment, let's also remember that ABP includes a whitelist that allow ads / divs / etc specifically so that some sites (which DO try to circumvent ABP) will remain functional. In fact, ABP / EasyList have suffered strong criticism for this, with people accusing them of having their own agenda in allowing some ads. No, to be fair, they allowed certain ads so as not to BREAK sites.

Again, Rick752 took the conservative approach that site functionality should supersede ad blocking.

This is where Ares2 departed from the traditional role of ABP / EasyList. I'm not excusing anything Maone did, but I can see how he might have felt unfairly targeted given how other sites (like Hulu, or a certain wrestling site) are left alone, and left functional.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby GµårÐïåñ » Mon May 04, 2009 12:02 am

Guest wrote:Hi Giorgio,

I've been following this saga for the past couple of days. At first I was somewhat disappointed, but having read your comment about Easylist completely blocking everything at noscript.net, I can understand your reasoning. As you said - it's the hacker mentality to fight back and exploit the system causing you trouble.

In the end, I think it would have been more Gentlemanly of you to get in contact with the Easylist maintainers and explain that your content was being blocked, but despite your chosen path of fighting back I am still in support of Noscript.

Keep up the good work.


Thank you but I will just say that he did but was faced with much of what we are seeing in this thread and all over the web, unreasonableness. His choice to react accordingly turned out to unfortunately vilify him instead because people are shortsighted and tend to take the word of others rather than doing their own due diligence and make up their own minds honorably. For example, many questions are asked and accusations are made to being ignored but the fact is they are repeatedly answered and people just don't read, they post in a hit and run fashion.

Another Guest wrote:
Tester wrote:He commented that already:
viewtopic.php?p=3133#p3133

If I got it right he pointed out that displaying the spy-bugs would not look beautiful on his site.


Wow, that's the most ridiculous answer and justification one could possibly come up with.

Very disappointing - that's all I can say.


Can you elaborate as to why its disappointing and ridiculous? The content injection actually attaches and blocks legitimate content on a site, the author choose to not have that code injected into the UI and plus there is nothing hidden, ghostery shows you in the status bar how many items there are, I have it myself and I use it, so I know. Please stop trying to find every little thing to paint in a tawdry manner and use as a weapon of blame. Its getting sad and becoming a true distraction to the heart of the matter.

Back to just standing by and letting people sling mud.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Another guest » Mon May 04, 2009 1:26 am

GµårÐïåñ wrote:Can you elaborate as to why its disappointing and ridiculous?


Giorgio Maone wrote:As you can see it's a content stylesheet deployed by a web site to style the web site content itself.


As one can see, there is code in the content stylesheet that styles content, which is not in place until Ghostery injects it. The obvious intention of that code is to prevent ghostery from displaying its notification-box. It's not as if Ghostery was accidently running into pre-existing content that had another purpose.

Giorgio Maone wrote:If the coders of that extension did their homework and learned to how use chrome notification boxes to deliver their notifications (like NoScript does), (...)


How is the code injection hurting the website, other than providing the information, that the website makes use of Google AdSense? What difference would it make if Ghostery used a chrome-notification-box other than making it more difficult (if not impossible) for you and other webmasters to mess with it? You seem to get a kick out of being engaged in arms races, without thinking about how your actions affect user-experience. Blocking the notifcation-box means taking something from your visitors which they wanted to see without giving anything in return. It's malicious and serves no purpose other than concealing the website's use of Google AdSense, which isn't much of a secret in the first place.

Giorgio Maone wrote:rather than injecting content with ugly purple boxes and obscuring random parts of the injected web page with no real purpose, (...)

GµårÐïåñ wrote:The content injection actually attaches and blocks legitimate content on a site


Ghostery's notification bubble hovers over the right corner of the website for some seconds. It does not break the website and it does not permanently obfuscate its content. In fact, the way Ghostery provides its information to its users is probably less intrusive than any chrome-notification-box could ever be. A chrome-notification-box would also obfuscate the site's content for the duration of its appearance and would drag the user's attention away from your site as well.

And regarding the alleged ugliness of ghostery's notification bubble: how is that of any concern? Do you think NoScript's placeholders are beautiful? Do you think every webdesigner, whose content you replace with them, shares your opinion? Don't the placeholders "attach [to] and block legitimate content on a site" as well? Did that keep you from implementing them? No? Why not?

So why do bother with ghostery's notification box? The users who install the add-on are fully aware of how it works and what it looks like. To patronize those users and to break their add-on with regard to esthetic concerns is just plain wrong.

NoScript, among other functions, blocks webbugs and thus makes a clear stand for transparency and against secret actions behind users' backs. Yet when it comes to your own website and your ad-revenues, anything seems to be more important than the things NoScript stands for, and even the alleged ugliness of a notification-box suddenly has higher priority than visitors' expressed interest in being informed about what's going on on a website.

GµårÐïåñ wrote:Please stop trying to find every little thing to paint in a tawdry manner and use as a weapon of blame.


It's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to find out, wether recent actions of Giorgio were in fact a unique sad mistake or rather the result of an attitude, that may cause similar wrongdoings in the future.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Giorgio Maone » Mon May 04, 2009 1:38 am

Another guest wrote:How is the code injection hurting the website[...]?
What difference would it make if Ghostery used a chrome-notification-box[...]?
Ghostery's notification bubble hovers over the right corner of the website for some seconds.

See? you answered by yourself. The right corner of the NoScript.net site is exactly where the Paypal Donate button sits.
Mmmm, no ads, no donations, you really wanted NoScript to die from starvation (before you point that out, I know I'm the one who almost killed it).

BTW, there's finally something to be read about it.

Good night (to those on my timezone, 3:38 AM).
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Another guest » Mon May 04, 2009 2:52 am

Giorgio Maone wrote:The right corner of the NoScript.net site is exactly where the Paypal Donate button sits.


Image

A. The notification-box is not obfuscating the donation button and it vanishes after a few seconds. In case of doubt relocating the button instead of hiding it would have been a clever approach.
B. It doesn't provide confidence, if you regularly beat about the bush in your first responses and only later come up with the actual reasons behind your actions. First it's fuzzy talk (not the right way to implement it, ugly box, nothing wrong about a content stylesheet) then comes the honest approach (afraid to lose money). The same thing happened, when you broke AdBlockPlus. People reported problems, and instead of telling them right from the beginning, that you were trying to interfere with AdBlockPlus to make your ads show up and that this might have to do with the problems people were experiencing, you had to be pushed to make such statements.

Giorgio Maone wrote:Mmmm, no ads, no donations, you really wanted NoScript to die from starvation (...).


Not at all.

I don't believe that anybody who seriously wishes to make a donation fails to do so because of Ghostery's notification-box. It vanishes and it doesn't even obfuscate the donation-button. There's more than one donation-button on the homepage and on the download page, and if people didn't find them they could still ask you by mail, etc. Breaking people's add-ons, however, especially add-ons that deal with privacy concerns, and not being straight about it, is a guaranteed way to make someone think about whether you should be trusted and given money to.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby x33a » Mon May 04, 2009 3:24 am

hi giorgio,

i am a long time user of noscript, and recommend it to a lot of people too.

while i think the decisions you made were asking for trouble, on the other hand the promptness with which you undid the mistake is highly commendable. and the grace with which you have carried yourself in this time of crisis is also remarkable.

noscript user base has taken a hit (presumably looking at AMO reviews, it's ratings have gone down too), but i don't think any true noscript user will ditch it for this one time mistake.

last but not the least, i used to block all ads on noscript.net, but after this drama and reading your comments about the need for revenue, i decided to whitelist your domain with abp. that's the least i could do for the extension which has been serving me remarkably since a long time.

i will continue to use noscript and adblock plus (though i believe that abp fans have gone overboard with noscript bashing), and hope that you recover from this.

we all commit mistakes, but if we correct those mistakes, we should be forgiven.

thanks for a great piece of software. :D
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby guest420 » Mon May 04, 2009 3:36 am

You've broken and lost my trust. Yes I've read your apology, but I don't believe you. I've uninstalled your add on and will be careful on the web until I find an alternative.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby GµårÐïåñ » Mon May 04, 2009 4:10 am

@x33a, thank you for the support and please keep in mind something Giorgio said a long time ago but no one seemed to have noticed and keep saying that the page loading is sufficient for him to make revenue, the fact is that they are not impression based but click-through and conversion based which means unless you click them or buy something after you do, he gets nothing. So to all who say popping up the page itself is a revenue source and that's the motivation for the updates, you are wrong. Thank you for your consideration and glad to still have you as a supporter.

@guest420, why don't you go ahead and smoke another bowl, make sure you change the water regularly. In the meantime good luck finding another solution and sorry that you give up on the best solution for in-browser protection so easily. Read the post again when the high is gone and you might believe him. Good times.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby guest420 » Mon May 04, 2009 4:18 am

I haven't smoked in about a year actually (I don't expect anyone to believe me because this the internet after all). I've just used the number for years for login names etc etc. Also not everyone that smokes it is a lazy do nothing loser, but whatever.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby GµårÐïåñ » Mon May 04, 2009 4:43 am

guest420 wrote:I haven't smoked in about a year actually (I don't expect anyone to believe me because this the internet after all). I've just used the number for years for login names etc etc. Also not everyone that smokes it is a lazy do nothing loser, but whatever.


Never said or implied that you are "a lazy do nothing loser" and coming from someone who has done my share of herb in the past, I wasn't judging and 3 advanced degrees later, I turned out just fine. It was subtle humor that was lost but I believe you, internet and all. In the spirit of puff puff pass, don't Bogart any harsh feelings. :mrgreen: Good times.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby whatever » Mon May 04, 2009 6:14 am

Posted this over on Wladimir's blog, surprised it even showed up:
This probably won’t show up, but while everyone has been dissecting this debate left and right, it really comes down to two individuals who have demonstrated less than the stereotypical maturity of junior high school girls. In short, this is a pissing match between two Europeans who apparently HAVEN’T learned anything from their history of warfare (ie: big pissing matches). Indeed, they’re both hiding behind this “cultured” veneer, attempting to use their programming prowess in that passive-aggressive way that only programmers can do so well, when it’s clear that they are actually not above the fray, they’re hip deep in the BS.

Would you trust them to code anything on the most important program your computer runs? I think it’s time to ask mozilla to incorporate the functionality of these immensely popular extensions, and put the development and management where it belongs: In the light, where transparency can ensure we can actually trust what goes on. Both ABP and noscript have managed to recreate Berlin from the Cold War, what with secret meetings and secret attacks.

If these extensions imply anything more than other extensions they implicitly tell users, “You can Trust Us, we’re the Good Guys”. It’s very clear, that they’ve long since abandoned that implication in favor of hurling mud at each other and pulling each other’s hair.

Simply pathetic.
--
I will add that at least Giorgio has apologized for his actions in the Great Extension War ("war" being a word that I will point out that Wladimir himself used to describe the situation, and a term that generally describes a situation with two opposing, but equally responsible factions). I stand by my call to just integrate the functionality, but I doubt that will ever happen.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Jon the Jew » Mon May 04, 2009 6:49 am

Guest wrote:
Alan Baxter wrote:...including breaking his web site until he capitulated.

Again: that was a false positive and it was never intended.

And yet it wasn't fixed after being informed. Its apparent to anybody who doesn't have their finger up their nose that Ares2 has a big hard-on for fucking with the Italian. I don't know, or care, why but its just obvious.

Alan Baxter wrote:
Guest wrote:
Alan Baxter wrote:...including breaking his web site until he capitulated.

Again: that was a false positive and it was never intended.

I tend to judge Ares2's intentions by his actions. The filters were overly broad and it was inevitable they'd cause site breakage. Adblock Plus was being reckless. Take a look at the filters if you disagree. They were still in place on Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:11 pm UTC.

Code: Select all
    /flashgot.net/*$script,subdocument,xmlhttprequest
    /hackademix.net/*$script
    /noscript.net/*$script,subdocument,xmlhttprequest
    /oss.informaction.com/*
    informaction.com/*$script,subdocument,xmlhttprequest,domain=flashgot.net|noscript.net|software.informaction.com
    flashgot.net#*(href*=informaction)(href*=com)(href*=%62)
    flashgot.net#*(href*=informaction)(href*=com)(href*=flashgot)
    flashgot.net#*(href*=oss)(href*=informaction)(href*=com)
    flashgot.net#ul(class=tla)
    noscript.net#*(href*=informaction)(href*=com)(href*=%62)
    noscript.net#*(href*=informaction)(href*=com)(href*=noscript)
    noscript.net#*(href*=oss)(href*=informaction)(href*=com)

As you can see, they pretty much disable everything, including any script, frame, movie, audio clip, Java appet or AJAX request, present or future, involving Giorgio's sites.

Then Ares2, the Adblock Plus filter list maintainer that Wladimir picked, came over to this forum to discuss his actions, and said in viewtopic.php?p=2802#p2802
Ares2 wrote:I know those filters are very restrictive but they were never meant to stay the way they are forever. Temporary they seem to work OK

Sounds like he was planning on keeping them in place, temporarily of course, until Giorgio fixed his web site to suit the Adblock Plus team. Adblock Plus and the EasyList filters continued to cause false positives on Giorgio's web sites until Thursday. Malicious? Your guess is as good as mine, but reckless disregard for sure.


After reading his commentary in the thread: Of course it was malicious. He is the kind that seems sweet until they get power and then they shaft everybody they can and then act angelic as if they cannot do wrong.

Tester wrote:Why is it that even very big sites do not fight Adblock as agressive as the noscript-site did?

Because they know that they would lose anyway in the long run. The noscript dev thought he is smarter than that. Ok, that is his choice. So he tried to trick adblockplus ever and ever again. And guess what: adblock reacted with more broad filters against this attempt. That is no attack, no evil fight -> That is exactly what the filterlist-maintainers are there for! They just did their job.

The false positives were provoked by the noscript-author himself through his attempts to fight adblock at any cost. That's what you get. That's what every other site would get. That is the reason why other sites don't even bother to start to play this foolish game, that they can only lose.

But the noscript-author is soooooo muuuuuuch smarter than that... </irony>


It is the Italian's right to circumvent ABP, as long as he doesn't fuddle with anything outside of his own site. ABP went above and beyond, intentionally, to put him in his place. The Italian did a big FU with his obstruction of ABP code and Wlad + Ares2 threw the biggest bitchfest I've seen in a while. I've seen a less teary press release in the wake of murder. I know that I'm no longer going to use ABP again, because at least the Italian isn't a manipulative little bitch. And I don't trust manipulative little bitches. They are the ones who always do the most damage in the end.
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Re: Latest NoScript version (1.9.2) breaks Adblock Plus

Postby Mc » Mon May 04, 2009 7:23 am

Why don't ABP people stop AMO reviews like that, try it at least:

Viruses in NoScript addon
von jimhap am 3.05.2009
I've just downloaded the "new" version and worse - it installs malicious viruses/toolbars on my computer!

Do not download if you hate viruses and malware!

Use another addon, like AdBlock Plus to enable security.
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